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Manage the Moment: Conversations in Performance Psychology
Manage the Moment: Conversations in Performance Psychology
Stephanie Harvey (missharvey) Five-Time Esports World Champion and Gaming Advocate
Stephanie Harvey, known by her in-game screen name, "missharvey", is a Canadian video game developer, professional gamer, and five time world champion e-sports player. She is also a woman who successfully manages the challenges of competing in Esports at the highest level. Dr. Shepp and Stephanie talk about navigating the uncontrollable variables in gaming & e-sports as well as the challenges that players can face in the online community as a successful gamer.
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Podcast transcripts coming soon at: ManageTheMoment.net
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Music by Brad Buxer
Thanks for tuning in to manage the moment conversations in performance psychology. I'm Dr. Sari Shepphird.
Steph Harvey:Every time that I was about to lose my spot on a team, whether it's because of commitment or performance and whatnot, these are always life. Like make it or break it kind of situations where you either quit or you come back stronger. Um, and I think that's what makes a great champion. Right? And I, every time I came back stronger, but right now I'm deciding at the moment I'd come back stronger or if I'm waiting and it's the hardest decision I've ever made in my life because all I can think about is with Michael Jordan quit. Would the Roger Federer quit if he knew he could still win?
Dr. Shepp:Stephanie Harvey known by her screen name. Ms. Harvey is a Canadian video game developer and five time world champion e-sports player. She is also a woman who is more than adept at managing the challenges of competing in E-sports at the professional level. I spoke with Stephanie about how she navigates the uncontrollable variables in gaming, and esports as well as the challenges that players can face among the online community as a successful gamer. She also shares her belief that learning how to fail is one of the most important things you can do to achieve success. Stephanie is an advocate. She is an innovator and she is a champion and I'm excited to share our conversation with you. Hi Stephanie. I'm so happy to be talking to you today. Um, you're not only a top performer in your field with five world champions behind your belt, but you're also a pioneer and an innovator. Thanks so much for joining me today.
Steph Harvey:Thank you so much for having me.
:Absolutely. I, I'm really excited to speak with you about your experience. I know that many people listening will be familiar with your career, but also many people taking part in our conversation today, um, won't have as much of a background in e-sports. And so it'll be great just to hear about your experience as this field has exploded so much in the past few years. Um, but also because you have a unique experience being a woman in e-sports. Now I say that kind of cautiously because as we'll talk about a lot of women play e-sports, but not a lot, lot of women compete in e-sports. So let's talk about your background and you, you are someone who's been a gamer, you say your whole life.
Steph Harvey:Yeah, I've been playing, uh, for as long as I remember. I wasn't always that intense, but I've always had a console or a computer to play games at home, uh, as young as I can remember. And in a sense you say we're all gamers? I think so because it doesn't have to be video games, but we all play at some point in our life and most of us playing, um, throughout all life, whether it's video games, which was board games or what not, crosswords, puzzles, you know, these are all games. And that's why I also believe that everyone can be a video game player they'd be using to find kind of what fits them the best.
Dr. Shepp:Well, I, I'll embarrass myself by saying, I recently bought a console, an upright console with a bunch of eighties and nineties games packed into, packed onto the motherboard.
Steph Harvey:Oh yeah, l ike Nintendo and such. Yeah. Like Atari and Sega and[ inaudible]. C ool.
Dr. Shepp:Um, but, but of course it puts me in a totally different class than you, but you've been, you've been a pro gamer now, um, for, for quite some time. In fact, in your field, you're, you're just about at the age of retirement. Um, but tell me a little bit about how you got into competitive gaming.
Steph Harvey:Um, it was very, everyone say randomly. Uh, it was when I started gaming in high school on a specific game called Counter Strike the game. I still played today competitively. U m, so it's been over 16 years and it was the most popular game at the time. And e veryone around my neighborhood was k ind o f playing it and to fit in and be able to go to prom w ith, with this guy, I really wanted to start playing and get close to him and his friends and I, that's how I started playing CS. But it took me a little bit before becoming competitive. I think at first I was just like proud to be a part of this community even though I wasn't really good. I was there, y ou know? But i f i t was t he bottom of the scoreboard, I could hang out on new week, week nights or weekends with them at local events and whatnot. And u m, it was only like maybe six months later that, u h, other girls found me and they were like, Hey, let's compete together. And that's when I got my first days of the competition.
Dr. Shepp:I think it's wonderful that you still experience gaming as a really collaborative sport. And I know you've mentioned that you feel one of the things about being a female gamer is that there's great collaboration and communication that takes place between women who are on the same team.
Steph Harvey:Yeah, I think it's super important actually because, um, there are still little women can competitive or competing that you can't really be picky on the players that you pick. If there's conflict, you can't just kind of drop that girl and pick up another one because there's no one else. So it's, it's, it's pretty much a, a matter of kinda going through the issues together and kind of growing as humans and learning how to solve problems and how to communicate properly. And all of that makes, I think, female gaming very interesting and different than, um, uh, most of their regular teams, maybe not as a top. I think nowadays because it's becoming a more and more popular and lucrative field, the top teams kind of want to stay more stable and have to go through these issues. But before, uh, becoming pros. And I think before, um, having longterm contracts, big players, I kinda like moving around all the time, being very unstable, every competition, every weekend, changing teams or whatnot. Uh, and it's something that I've never really faced on a female team because, uh, kind, kinda had to work through our issues.
Dr. Shepp:Well, you bring up important points about being a successful gamer in general because most professional players are going to be on some kind of a team. Um, unless you're, you know, streaming and that's how you earn your, your, your living. But if, if you're competitive player, you're going to be on some kind of team or you're going to be playing a multiplayer game. So communication is extremely important, isn't it?
Steph Harvey:Yeah, and a lot of the games, uh, I think calm is more important than skills.
Dr. Shepp:All right, so before we go any further, maybe we need a little bit of a dictionary here. Some terms in e-sports you may not be familiar with. So let's define those before we go on"Comm": That just refers to communication, communication between team members or communication with your coaches, among the coaching staff."Streaming": streaming refers to video game streaming, which allows fans to watch their favorite players in action in the game in real time on the web. Some e-sports players earn their living through streaming alone by recording themselves, playing in the game and sometimes also interacting with viewers as they do. So"Twitch": Twitch is the largest live streaming platform for gamers."Tilting": Tilting is a term for becoming so frustrated, angry or upset during gaming that your play breaks down and your skill is impaired. This can include total meltdowns, but it also just may be that you're so internally distracted that you're comm, your communication, is no longer effective and you start making mistakes or you lose control of yourself in a game."Map": A map is the generated landscape that changes every time a new game begins. So now that we have a little bit of terminology, let's keep listening to Stephanie.
Steph Harvey:Yeah. And a lot of the games, uh, I think comm is more important than skills because, uh, in the end when you're at the top of the world fighting versus the best of the best, everyone's good at the game. So what matters the most is teamwork, communication, adaptation, positivity, um, and everything that you need to be performing on the date of exactly like a sports athlete. Um, on a professional team, uh, they not only have practice, they're in digital skills. Like there's a lot that comes into play for the team and teamwork. And I think that's even more important in gaming because it's such a mental and intelligence base game, but not only like smarts intelligence, but also like emotional intelligence. And everything that comes with it.
Dr. Shepp:And some gamers are going to have a natural comm ability and some are going to have to learn how to communicate, um, uh, more effectively. You know, if you're, if you grew up kind of playing your game and becoming the best at it, but you're, you're, you're isolated and sort of doing it on your own. Um, or you might, you might be streaming and talking to people who are listening but not necessarily having to have a conversation in the middle of it of a game. It's skills that need to be developed. So how do you find when you are playing with women in e-sports that those women have natural communication abilities? Or do you feel like that's something that's acquired or a combination?
Steph Harvey:I think it's, it's a little bit of combination. I think we do talk more, uh, out of the box, uh, from my experience. But, uh, Epic teamwork is super rare to have it without learning it. Like you kind of have to learn how to talk to each other. There's also communication that is a unique to the teams you plan. So you kind of have to learn that language. Um, also there's different personalities that you play with and you have to learn to play with these people. Um, so there's a lot of, a little bit of both. Uh, there's some people they're just gifted, right? They're just good listener, good communicator like very, that work really well with others. Um you know, these people are for me, uh, incredible because for me I had to kind of learn to do everything. Um, like, uh, I was a lonely child. I was extremely competitive. You know, I had to learn to take criticism and it still today at challenge but um, couldn't keep my frustration properly communicate, uh, between teammates, you know, all these kinds of things. It's, it's a keep on learning thing from me where I always want to be better. And uh, I think it's like that for a lot of people. But the thing is that not a lot of people want to take that step or kind of are able to do the intro introspective and realize that they need to, that's up. That's like really hard to realize and to do. Cause usually it comes when you're out kind of already up top to learn these basic skillsets. Because right now I'm esports, we have no coach in the amateur level. All the coaches are at the pro level. And a lot of the time it's kind of already too late. I have no, I don't want to say too late, but it takes a lot more to work on it. No one teaches you at like six, seven, eight, 10 years old. How to communicate inside a gaming team. Well if you play hockey, football, what not, you know there's predecessor that and there's coaches. Cool. And university isn't what my colleges that teaches you how to do teamwork while gave me kind of learn it by yourself itself thought and that's much harder to succeed.
Dr. Shepp:You're bringing up some really important challenges that I think would be interesting to talk about. I think you know, so many Esports players now, even the professional ones are starting so young. You're talking about teenagers who haven't learned a lot about how to manage their own emotions, um, or even that much about themselves. And, and yet, self-awareness is such an important skill. Any sports, um, as is patience and frustration tolerance things that you mentioned because if you're not communicating well or you're not quite sure how to manage different personalities, you don't have that frustration tolerance. Um, that's a sure way toward, you know, the path of, of tilting in the game.
Steph Harvey:Absolutely. And I think it's super important to control your emotion, your ups and downs. Um, I think it's been proven and sports as well, like the more you're able to stay calm and even when you're, you have success to like stay calm and utilize that to your advantage, uh, when it goes bad, it's the same thing. You're able to stay calm and stay focused on the game. And the goal, I think that's something that in Esports, um, uh, choking or, uh, tilting or, uh, like collapsing on their pressures. And that happens all the time because most players don't have any, uh, emotional supports when they compete. Even professional players are competing for millions of dollars are often left on their own. Um, so they have no tools to face these kinds of stressful moments.
Dr. Shepp:So on the inside of e-sports. So what's it like when you look around at players in the situation? Cause I know of course in the last few years there's been the use of more sports psychologists such as myself in e-sports, but yet you're talking about a landscape where that kind of coaching and the mental side of things isn't really a part of the upbringing for new players and champions.
Steph Harvey:Yeah, no, I think we are, um, opening the doors to sport psychologists and all that kind of stuff. I think that's so important, but it's still very minimal and it's way, even when it's available on teams, not all the players are, uh, using these resources. And like I mentioned a little bit earlier, it's about wanting to get better and wanting to use these tools in the game. So even if they give, if the teams gave you the tools, that doesn't mean that you respect them or used them when it matters. Um, so, and that's at the pro level when it's your life career to do it. So when we're talking about the amateur level, um, from a to Z amateur from almost semi-pro too, this is the first time I'm touching the game. Amateur, there's not a lot of resources. If I would advice parents are now listening. They have the means talk to your sports psychologist as soon as you can to support that your kid doing esports. Um, cause it's probably the closest that they can get support to in their area. Cause I think it's so important to not be left alone and to have these tools. I started getting these tools when I was over 30 and Oh my God, it would have helped me so much if I had those in my early twenties, um, to just be a better person in and outside the game. And it's all stuff that now I realize it's so important, so crucial and in a way for me, for my career, it's kinda too late but it's not too late for everybody else that's under 25 right. To learn this.
Dr. Shepp:You mentioned that you, you think of yourself as a healthy gamer and just now you referred to parents getting involved in the careers of, of their kids who are playing e-sports. And one of the things you've said is that when your parents took interest in your gaming it, it changed your life, you changed the conversation at the dinner table and you felt more connected and more support. Tell me a little bit about that.
Steph Harvey:This is something that I cannot stress enough are important. My parents were in my career and how the way they were, the approach gaming completely changed her. I think they were never really against gaming but they did not like that. I would go to tournaments with like 500 guys and two girls, right? They were in for three days. They did not understand it. They were kind of, um, just out of the loop of what it is to be like in a he sports communities especially, we're talking here, we're talking about 2003, like we're not looking in the years though we are now where it's more and more known. It's, it was really like a little insect in a rural, like what is this weird thing and uh, can we accept it or whatnot. So, um, I, I'm someone that's pretty stubborn and I told him I'm doing it with or without you so you better be on board or I'm out. And it was as simple as that. I was 16, 17 and you know, we all know teenagers at 18, we kind of believe we can do whatever we want cause we're 18. Right? So that was my way of seeing things like ongoing, I'm going to be 18 then very soon, so you better be on board or I'm closing the doors to like my passion and my Albert's Arby's. So, um, they decided to come to an event without asking me. They just showed up to an event. I'm glad they showed up and they were like, Oh, this is what the event is. And it looks pretty cool actually. And they started getting to know my friends and they started to getting to know the game I was playing. And throughout the years they just were involved as if I was playing soccer or piano or I don't know anything that has to do with your child's passion when they're in school. And it changed everything cause we went from being conflict with the, the game being the conflict to the game being the uniting factor in our relationship where they would ask me, Oh, what's up with your team? Like how's this teammate? Like do you win tonight? You know, how's practice? What's the score in a league? You know, all these kinds of things. Like they were aware of what I was doing and when I need them, for example, for a specific day to eat in front of the computer because we had a really important match. They understood then they were able to say, okay for today, like we'll make a meal that you can even from the computers so you can win your match. You know? And it doesn't mean that I was eating in front of the computer every time. It's a once a month for an exception. They understood that there was no conflict about it. Right. And these are the little things that, um, that really made a difference where mom, like, I want to do my exam but I have a match. Can you give me a ride today instead of me taking the bus cause I need to be on time for a match. Okay, I'll give you a ride. And if it's for your gaming and it's important that we'll be there on time to do boat, boat, your exam and your game so you don't ditch either. Or, you know, I think these little things were so important because if you start fighting about you need to stay in school but you don't support the passions of your kids and you forced them to do school blindly without like while forgetting about who they are, you're gonna lose them, I think personally or they're going to get closed up. And that's how you want. You want them to have a balance and open life, um, and you want them to open up so you gotta be there and understand their world.
Dr. Shepp:Your story is a really familiar one to a lot of the players that I've spoken with. Because e-sports can be the source of conflict and contention in a family when, um, there's a young person who's wanting to make that their life, their passion, their career and parents, you know, just don't understand. Um, and, and it can lead to a lot of volatility and arguing and, and isolating of, of that kid or young adult. Um, but then I also hear on the other side of things that sometimes parents will come around and start to support their kid when they realize that their child can make a living off of East spores. And that's not always a positive thing because, um, as I talked to players from around the world and that this is going to vary culture to culture and country to country, but sometimes there's more pressure then on the professional sports player because not only was e-sports part of like a tumultuous history in the family, but now there's this expectation that we'll, if you're gonna do it, then you, you better, you better be able to either provide for the family or prove to us that you can make a living with this and it provides more pressure to the player when they're, when they're involved in the sport.
Steph Harvey:I think that's a very point. And I also think it's a, it's a weird thing to put that kind of pressure, um, on a kid or on someone because I always wonder how we try to compare it to something that we are really okay with. If that person was playing soccer, football, whatever, would they have to perform or else they would have to stop that activity? Um, this is always something I don't think so. Like, do we tell our kids that won't reach the NHL? You need to stop playing hockey because you won't be a pro player. Like, no, we don't. And why would that be the case with gaming? It doesn't make any sense because it's not if you don't become a pro players or if it, if you don't make a living out of it, this is not the end for you. This is still the beginning because there's so many opportunities in East ports and even if you don't end up working in e-sports, whether it's journalists or trying to migrant Geyser or a team owner or whatever you're going, if you're not, we're kidding. E-sports, um, you will have learned so many skills and quality for your life to face life because you competed because you had to deal with like a life balance schedule and one night of the competition and just playing video games itself has been proven to give you, to give you so much to face life. And um, so for me it's like a nonissue with most of the thing that we say about gaming. Uh, it's an an issue because we just kind of put gaming on its own when he can be compared to everything we already faced these days. And from me, gaming is just like anything else. If your kid plays chess competitively, are you going to tell him to stop playing? If he can't make top a hundred in the world? I don't think so. Why would you tell them to start playing video games? Right. So that's, that's the cushion is like a mystery to me when it's not the end. If they don't become pro doesn't mean they're whole e-sports Pat is going to be was a waste. It's not, it's the beginning.
Dr. Shepp:And I'm sure some of this has to do with generation differences, you know, um, w different revolutions in, in Western culture, whether that be the sixties or the eighties or whatever it might be. It's, it's kind of another revolution in culture because some of the parents generations aren't going to relate to, um, this kind of pastime or hobby or interest. Um, and yet at the same time, we have such an opportunity to build bridges. I really liked the Ted talk that you gave on parents becoming involved in the gaming of their children. And, and I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't listened to it. It is in French, but there are English subtitles. So, um, and I really recommend it because you, you make a lot of good points about the future of, of, um, of this generation of kids and, and how many positive skills can come out of someone's investment in, in gaming. I think that's another generational difference because older generations might think about Screentime as being bad for people's brains or that gaming somehow causes isolation or that they associate it with, um, having difficulty socializing. But e-sports is a, is a really different culture now than when, um, gaming began. And there's so many positive things that come out of it.
Steph Harvey:Yeah, most of it are actually positive. I think that, uh, because we're scared of change, obviously the society is changing or becoming more and more online. And like you mentioned screen time and video games are more and more presence that this is a big scary thing for the older generations because they don't really understand. Um, and they don't really know how to cope with it. But what I always say is, like I said, I think you've said that in the Ted talk as well. You know, for me gaming is like broccoli. Broccoli is good for you. If you only ate broccoli dough, you'll be sick. Okay? So if you only do gaming, yeah, you'll be sick. You'll probably be sick and probably not going to be good for you. But everything is a question of balance in life. And gaming is, is another one of when it's done right. If it's the most uplifting and amazing thing ever because it makes you live experiences and makes you discover people from all around the world and it gives you so much skills, like tools in life, whether it's workout in your multitasking, um, conflict resolution, like I was mentioning, like learning Teamworks comunication skills or a decision making, special awareness. Like all these kinds of things are amazing for kids to learn. We use gaming for[inaudible] when people are injured. We use gaming to concur. Concur fears. Like there's so many things that makes gaming an amazing tool for life that we can't just, we can't just bash on the fact that, well if I just do gaming then I'll be like, it's bad for you. Uh, yeah. If you just watch Netflix 24, seven, it's going to be horrible for you as do I want to bam that flicks or do I sit in Netflix's the cause for all the problems the world? No, it's an, it's an unrelated, it has nothing to do with Netflix. It has to do with your consumption and your exaggeration of an object or a tool or whatever. Um, in that case it's gaming and we just use it as escape goat because we don't understand it.
Dr. Shepp:It's interesting that we have so many new studies that have shown the benefit of e-sports for different mental health conditions. For example, an old school game called Tetris is helpful for, um, getting people over. PTSD studies have shown and um, we have organizations. Yeah, yeah. We have organizations like I'm cancer fit that help place kids with uh, who, who have cancer or who are recovering from cancer with East sports teams in order to help them find some motivation. And some joy in life is sort of like the make a wish foundation has done with, with many other areas of life. There's organizations that are really trying to make a difference and using e-sports to do so.
Steph Harvey:Yeah. And honestly I think that's where we're at. Um, this especially like the people of my age, the 30 plus from eastwards, we, we, we want to give back. We want to be there for the next generation. We want to show support. We want to make a deference. Uh, there's no boundaries in e-sports. There's no frontier between the countries. There's no limit physical limitation. There's no like in a way you can look like whoever, you can have any kind of volition. Religion could speak any language. You can come from anywhere, like all that. The only thing that unites us or the main thing that you notice is gaming. And that's what's amazing because, um, it allows me, my brain to take about so many great things that I can do with gaming and what I want to give back to the communities. Um, because of the, we, it changed my life.
Dr. Shepp:You've already started giving back some of the things that you do now in your career or are related to advocacy and trying to make a difference and a change in, in the community. And one of the things you've done with a group of your collaborators is, um, developed a site called misclicks. Can you tell us about that?
Steph Harvey:Yeah. Um, I mean ms[inaudible] at the time was built around the idea that um, pretty much there was no safe place and that women were kind of pitch against each other. And, um, I wanted to create and unite a bunch of girls from different communities and make, uh, miss clueless miss cliques, which was going to be, um, a way for us to promote and advocate diversity and minorities in gaming, whether it's female or other stuff like, uh, uh, gender or, um, non heterosexual. I think that's how you say it in English. Um, people or what that like the non-normative I'm not quite sure what you're doing. Yeah, no, absolutely.[inaudible] sounds perfectly acceptable. It was pretty much a way for us to, uh, fight the fight that nobody was fighting at the time cause I was over seven years ago, I think now. Uh, cause we were not there yet. I think that sports was not there yet. Um, it was not about inclusivity. It was still about just showing that we exist. Um, and uh, so we started misclicks and where we had a dedicated bill dedicated streaming channel to, on Twitch and where we promoted a bunch of, uh, people from different background into the geek and Gimmel geeking gimme a gaming culture. And we also provided an inclusive community, which were honestly, we had almost a zero tolerance for, um, uh, for harassment and one not I say almost because when we had these kinds of things come up in our communities instead of kind of banning them and not supporting them or not talking to them, we would try to teach them first. And then if they, that the lesson couldn't be taught, then we would act on it. But we found that it was more powerful to teach to people being jerks not to be jerks and just pretty much punish them right away. Um, that was a really good learning experience for us actually. But, um, but yeah, so we started that. We had a website where we lift up to each other, lift up other women, talked about successful people in our community. Also, uh, allowed, uh, people that wanted to get involved to kind of show up and start their own show. Uh, we had tabletop shows, dungeon and dragons shows, horror shows. Like we had so many shows at one point on the platform and we did a five years of this, this initiatives. But as our career kind of blossom and flourish because East first in gaming just completely exploded in the last five years. So our time, it was a lot harder to commit on this project. So we kind of shut off the chapters for now, um, by um, kind of letting all the shows go back to other channels. And so we didn't close the shows, we just let them live somewhere else and we kind of uh, closed misclicks but all the girls involved, we continue this, uh, I want to say advocacy or this fight for inclusivity and minorities, uh, where we are. Like Anna works at Twitch, Jen works, uh, at Ubisoft. She was on rainbow six and now she works uh, uh, behavior. I'm everywhere in the spread as well. Uh, so we're just in other, I want to say mandate but still come you continuing that mission on a note on a say no to. There's way more initiatives now that are doing a really good job at what we tried to do. And I think that was also why we decided to move on and let others kind of pick up the phone for now because we didn't have the resources and other people are actually wanting to make a that different student. I think that's super important. That's fantastic. I think one of the things that players don't anticipate as they climb the ranks in e-sports is just how difficult the, the toxicity
Dr. Shepp:in the online community can be. So when you have different avenues for support and things that are working to combat that toxicity, it's, it's so helpful and important. And I know that professional teams have things in place to help combat the toxicity, whether that be suspending a player or whatever that might be on, um, on Twitch or, or on a team, whatever it is, where players are reprimanded for their behavior. But at the same time, there's so much about the toxicity that is uncontrollable and, and players are not always prepared for how that might feel. You've said in the past that cyber bullying is one of the biggest challenges you've had to deal with.
Steph Harvey:Yeah. And I think that's a challenge that we still to this day are reactive to it instead of being proactive about it, meaning, um, we kind of fight the fight backward where when there is cyber bullying, uh, whether it's in a game where you can, uh, report that Plager or whether it's in real life where you take action or whether you go see a psychologist when people, when something is wrong or whatnot, it's always backward for me and I think we need to do way more proactive initiatives to fight that fight at the roots. Like for me, I keep saying this, but for me, we should be in school first thing when you're five, six years old, primary school and teaching the kids how to interact online and how to receive that message as well because it's not only about, um, I think bullying others. It's also how you react to bullies. Uh, I think it's a little bit of 50, 50 where I don't think that we can extinguish cyberbullying forever with everyone that gets something that's going to be a problem probably are all life. So yes, we can fight, tried to avoid cyber bullying, but we also need to be able that when it happens, know how to take care, how to respond to it, how to deal with it. And right now I don't know of any initiatives that work, um, on that side. And I think that's something for me that so important to be able to be there in that escalate the violence and not play that game. And usually that's what's happening right now. Like you get insulted against all back and you know, it goes dramatic. It goes violence so fast with the worst. Yeah. And that's just our defense mechanism to pretty much be able to handle it. Like you fight back, um, cause you don't want to be a victim. Right. But is it the right solution? I'm 33 years old. I've done this my whole life. I don't know if it's a solution I have no tools to. So I want to, I want our government, our education systems to do something about this. I think the internet should be like sex, sex is in schools and we teach these kids how to have good relationships and why you sex can be dangerous, but why you're going to have sex or all life most likely. And why should the a fun experience for both of your partners. And we teach that very young to make sure that people understand the limits, right? Um, we don't do that from the internet, but in the internet it's the same thing. You're going to use it your whole life. You're going to have most of the time a positive experience, but you can do things are illegal, but you might get hurt. I'm like, it's the same thing for me as sex and we need to understand the consequences really young before it's too late.
Speaker 4:[inaudible][inaudible]
Dr. Shepp:I think it's a fantastic idea. You're speaking about having online literacy training for kids and I can't think of anything more appropriate. Um, as a matter of fact, if I can help out in any way, let me know. Because I think that that kind of training and, um, and understanding of the online community should start from a very young age. We find even outside of e-sports that when kids get on social media, they're really unprepared for what they're going to find and aren't equipped to be able to, to manage that, that kind of culture and, and the things coming at them. So I think it'd be a fantastic idea just to have that kind of training. I see what you mean about the analogy of, of sex education. Online education is something that's, um, that would make a big difference because technology just continues to impact our lives in to greater extents as every, as every day goes by. So that kind of training would be so helpful. What a great idea it would. Yeah.
Steph Harvey:And I think that's, that's a ripple effect that's going to affect gaming in the end. Right. Um, and we need to start, we can't start with gaming cause it's not, honestly, it's not there. I don't think it's the problem. Problem is we higher than that. The problem is, is is the internet that social media like have never been disconnected?
Dr. Shepp:Yeah, sure. Kids are online from the time they're six months old sometimes. Um, um, you know, the, the, the parent who's showing the YouTube kid's video to their child while they're eating dinner or having a snack, um, and holds the phone in front of their, their child's face. It starts from the time kids can, can really think now. And so I think it's such a good idea to be able to have some education that goes along with how kids can manage that presence in their lives. And it'll just like you say, translate into gaming so that when kids or young adults get involved in East sports or become e-sports professionals, they'll have a background in how to manage the different things that they'll face. Again, really great idea.
Steph Harvey:Exactly. We can't just let the, honestly, I don't think we can let the parents themselves take that burden. And that's why I think it's, it should be something that's being taught in school and we need to support the teachers in this education system to be able to teach it because we can't just let burden on the parents because I think we're going to fail.
Dr. Shepp:No, that's, that's an important initiative to have. I know that there's different things happening at different levels of education with Eastboards, but you're talking about something more transformative. So there are scholarships now that are given to university for people who are wanting to go into e-sports careers and we are seeing players being developed at that collegiate level. And so yes, we're, we have education that's getting involved in some ways, but you're talking about something much more transformative. And I think I'm more of a foundation. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Steph Harvey:And I think that those colleges initiatives and um, all of that is so important like this. It's crucial. But I think it's, it's, it's not the same as what I'm talking about. It's like a different bottle.
Dr. Shepp:No, totally. Totally. Different. Absolutely. And some of the battles that you've encountered and that other eSports players encounter can be quite frightening. I mean, when you're on Twitch and you're streaming, you kind of can't get away from some of the comments to, you know, to the side of your eye if you look over to them. But there's different levels of harassment that take place because sure, you're going to have the heckler as we call it. And like the fan in the stands at the, at the football game who's yelling, you know, you can't throw, you can't catch. You have that kind of thing that happens in e-sports, but it can also get quite frightening. Um, death threats and um, sexual harassment and threats of, of rape and assault and violence. Um, this is some of what particularly female East sports players
Steph Harvey:can sometimes face. Yeah, it does happen unfortunately. As soon as you're a public figure, especially, um, I'm sure it happens to most people. Um, and when you stream, you take on that choice where you kind of expose yourself to be vulnerable to these things. Um, I always see that. I don't think it should be like that. I don't think I should have to, uh, face those issues. But at the same time, I need to be realistic. It happens and I need to be prepared for it. So for me, most of the time I just see more it just shove it away. Um, so I would say like 95% successful at it, but there's still a 5% where I'm getting, Oh, having a shit day behind the screen, like nobody knows and I'm streaming or I'm doing whatever, and then I read an awful climate or something happens that can really just push me down. And, um, those are the hard days. And that's why I think you need to be surrounded with a good support system, whether it's your family, friends at will not, uh, that will not few will the drama and that will lift you up. Um, because if you get caught in that negativity, um, well, it's like a, how I compare it as like a, a beach. If you go too far in the ocean, it like drags you more and more away. Um, I would compare it to dad, like there's a tin line between, uh, being able to swim back and just being like trapped into the ocean. Um, and it's kind of a battle on a daily basis to stay on the, yeah, consume bap. This was this swim, swim back. This was fine. Or like today I got swallowed and I can't breathe kind of. Um, but like I said, I guess it's the choice I make,
Dr. Shepp:but I would imagine that female athletes from most sports have experienced something really similar. There's a challenge that female athletes face when they become public figures when they reach the top of their game. Um, because there are some people who don't want women to succeed in that way. Um, there are some people, whether it's just sexism or misogyny or whatever it might be, who, um, just want to tear women down. I mean, everyone from, you know, Serena Williams in tennis to, to Stephanie Harvey and Eastboards to, you know, women throughout sports in general will say that they face this kind of challenge. The, another thing that female athletes face is that you become sexualized in order to, to be seen as more, more popular or to find more acceptance as an athlete. And that happens a lot of times where a female athlete might achieve great success. And then because of that, you know, she's approached by Playboy or given some sort of other offer, you know, to, to become hyper-sexualized and in order to make more money and make a, make a better living. Um, sometimes it's just the way things are worded. You, you see, for example, headlines like the 10 hottest pro gamer girls that would destroy you at video games. So women athletes are often sexualized in order to sell the magazine or to get ratings for the, for the streaming show or whatever it is. And I think that's something that male athletes just can't relate to.
Steph Harvey:Yeah. There's so many points you just brought up. I think that my first point is going to be, um, I don't think it's only athletes, um, sports or Eastboards. I think it's every woman in a position of power on a say, um, or every woman in a male dominated environment or, um, like what are you at the office? Women need to prove that they are competent, wild man start competent right away. And I think that's something that without us realizing it, the society kind of put it in our brain, me included, that if a girl was pretty and she had a leading position is probably not only because she was talented but was because she was spreading to or you know, like there's so many things in life that taught me to be skeptical about a women's success. And that's so frustrating now to me because I had to break out of that mall pitching women against each other of doubting their success or being jealous of their success as if there can only be one women because that's what people taught me. I need to be the best woman player in the world and I can't be number two because other women, you know, they like, I need to be the best. And, um, and I think that that's one thing about my career, but, um, it took me so long to kind of realize that, assess that and get out of it and start to be happy for it. A woman's success and not doubt someone's talent just because they're in a position of power and I've never known about them before, so I'm, I need to be skeptical about, yeah, maybe they're not that great, you know, I what her doing because they could be a morals. I don't know why they're any sports or, you know, these kind of thing that, um, honestly other people put into my mind when I was so young and now I started to believe it and I was part of the problem. Um, eh, I think it's so easy to be part of that kind of gossip. I don't have you sit that in English, that gossip that is negative for your environment honestly hurts you so much because you can't, like my aunt taught me that. She told me something like, you know, if you don't forgive, you're, you're the one that's holding on to the pain. And I think that's the same for the jealousy and is the same floor, um, for most things in life, uh, revenge and resentment. And one that when you feel these emotions, you're the one that's hurting. You're the ones stuck with it. You're the one that, um, will have a hard time going to sleep because you're taking it out someone else's life. Why don't you focus on your own life and be happy for other women? Because it doesn't mean that they're successful that you cannot be successful too. It doesn't mean that because they got this award or this job or won this tournament, that it undermines your success. And I think that's something that took me so long to realize. And I wonder if you're a guy, if that's how you feel. Because I am a strong believer that I was thought that I needed to be the best women in everything. And I've always been compared to every single woman and everything that I've ever done, whether it's my looks or my skills or my role position or Sally or whatnot, it was always about, um, well this woman is prettier. This woman is nicer, this woman is this and that. And I don't remember my friends guy friends telling each other, well, this guy is hotter and this guy is nicer. Like this is not something that I feel that their pitch against each other. Uh, w while we are for women, like most like successful women in XYZ article happens all the time and I'm guilty of reading them, you know, because I'm being pitched these headlines and medias and marketing and, and what not. This is how we should behave. This is what the most beautiful woman looks like and this is what I should achieve. Two, if I'm not there, then I suck. Kind of. Um, and I feel that's how I was raised and not by my parents, but by society.
Dr. Shepp:Yeah. I think you speak to something that female listeners will probably recognize pretty pretty quickly that we are often as women, I'm taught to be skeptical of other women or to feel a sense of competition rather than supporting each other. And of course there've been many women who've tried to change that tide over the course of history and encourage women to support each other and, and to see each other as allies. One of the things you said is so often we compare our situations to others and get depressed by our progress, but that's not how it should be. We need to learn how to fail, how to lose, and how to be happy for others. This is the best way to achieve your own success.
Steph Harvey:Yeah, I think that's a, that's exactly it. Learning out of fail is more important than winning. Learning how to focus on your career is more important than comparing yourself to others. If you, I learned this from a professional BMX, a female athlete that I work with at the Olympic committee. Um, she's a a goal, she's a medalist and or country, well in the world, but she's from New Zealand and she, she says, focus on being the best athlete you can be and that will make you a better person if you focus on your goal and how to achieve it. And if you actually think that you did the best that you could in a tournament, you won't be disappointed because you did the best you could. Even if he got second place, you worked our before, during and after and you the best you could. We're second place so you have to be happy about that second place. She said that when she had that modal and she won silver, everybody thought that she won gold because all the interviews, she was so proud of yourself instead of being disappointed that the whole is still today. Years later congratulating our for Goldwind she never won gold chicken because she was proud of the best she could do.
Dr. Shepp:Hmm. That. That's great. And I think it does speak to the mental side of, of being an athlete that you want to try to optimize your own performance and control what you can about your own execution, the execution of your skill rather than letting concerns about how other people are performing, impact your own approach to your sport. Because one is going to be much more of course of a distraction and it's going to hinder your ability to stay in the moment and execute your skill.
Steph Harvey:It's learning, it's wanting to win instead of being scared to lose. And I think that's crucial in e-sports.
Dr. Shepp:Yeah, it's crucial in a lot of sports we hear from football to golf to e-sports that that you, you need to play to win and instead of playing not to lose, and that mindset often brings a different caliber of performance.
Steph Harvey:Yes. And even today it's hard to understand it. Like you say that and I'm, I have to stop and think about what that means. Um, because it's, it's really subtle to an either or. Right. It's really a question of, of wanting it just a little more than the others.
Dr. Shepp:And learning how to perform under pressure, which you've had to do, not only in e-sports, but you are also the winner of, of Canada's smartest person. So, and you're a public speaker and you, you, um, work in policy initiatives and so you, you know what it's like to perform under pressure.
Steph Harvey:And I'm guilty of that. I've done tournaments where I was scared to lose and I lost them. I loved them every time. So yeah, I think that even when I was playing at Canada smartest person, when I was scared to lose, I was falling behind. And when I was like, okay, well, um, let me just finish this for myself. I ended up winning the races I was behind just because I was focusing on myself and my own goals. And, uh, it's crucial just in life overall. You can't compare yourself to others because especially with social media, this is the tip of the iceberg. Everything you see online is probably exaggerated to be better. So if you compare your life to everything that you see, the top of the iceberg, you'll be, you'll be so, uh, in French, there's a word for it. You'll be so sad. Cause you compare yourself to unrealistic goals. Their life is not just the iceberg, the top of it, right? There's a whole block of ice underneath the ocean and that's your life. And you're trying to compare to something that's not realistic. The top of the iceberg of everybody else. Successful traveling, being hot on the beach, you know, like always on their best angle. Like it doesn't make any sense. And it doesn't mean you shouldn't consume it. It just means that you just need to understand that that's not their life as well.
Dr. Shepp:Well, I think having expectations that are realistic rather than perfectionistic also makes a difference. You want to try to be the best that you can be, but that doesn't involve trying to be perfect. Um, because everybody's gonna need to learn and to grow and to, um, continue to push themselves in whatever field that they find themselves. And oftentimes it's when you try to be perfect and avoid making any mistakes that you end up making more mistakes. And I think, I think it's so important to make mistakes and embrace it and learn from them. Um, you know, when I was practicing, when I'm practicing with my team and we destroy a team in practice, we don't learn anything. We really don't. Practice is useless. Like you need to have hard matches and our games to sit down and say, okay, we need to improve this and that and whatnot. To be able to improve you meet difficulty, you need, um, challenge to be able to get better. You need, you need to make mistakes in order to reach the next step and learned and grow and just overall create something better. And you talk about that, using that efficiency in practice that you, you shouldn't really focus on trying to learn every single detail there is about a map because you don't usually do that in a game. You want to work on your utility and your positioning and how you're communicating with your teammates and, and focus on efficiency in practice in order to be most efficient in the game. You know, this is the debate that some people might disagree with, but I, I'm
Steph Harvey:a strong believer that right now most deans are not utilizing their practice schedule in the right ways. Um, we're, it's getting better and better, but I don't think that just playing and playing and playing, um, is this really the optimal way to get better? Um, I think the up you need to know that if you play 10 hours a day, probably a lot of these hours are wasted time because you could be recharging your batteries. You could be doing other activities that will make you better in the game. Uh, because I strongly believe in mental fatigue. Um, and if you're not 100% in the game, uh, and 100% focused and wanting to learn and be better, uh, you could be utilizing your time in other ways. And I don't think that we can be 100% efficient 10 hours a day. And a game, like I think it needs to be done efficiently and uh, not always just playing, like there's stuff in each of the games that can help you what are, it's watching an opponent or, um, like going really deep into specific mechanics or working on communication and what not on a team can be just as important as just playing, um, and make you grow faster.
Dr. Shepp:Those are great details to point out. And I think you're absolutely right. I think efficiency in practice and preparation is true regardless of what kind of performance area you're talking about. If you, um, if you don't think mental fatigue is real, you're gonna find yourself becoming more easily distracted. Um, certainly mental fatigue is something that is not only been proven through research, but just through people's experience. There's only so much you can pay attention to at any given moment, of course. And if you're trying to pay attention to too much or you don't have a plan for how to deal with distractions, you are going to fatigue much more easily.
Steph Harvey:Yeah. And on a team practice, um, you need people that understand that. Um, and you need to optimize your body and lifestyle to be able to be on point when you are practicing and doing matches so that your mental fatigue is, um, or just your mental is not fatigued, if that makes any sense. Um, so what you're eating, the amount of time you're resting when you're eating only, you know, everything that a regular ass athlete needs to go through to have his optimal performance on the day of his competition as the same for gaming. And it's not because they're sitting in front of a computer or console that we don't have physical limitation and that we should practice all day. We do have physical limitation and we need to take care of our body just the same.
Dr. Shepp:Sure. I work with people who are not even 20 years old and they've already had pinched nerves and wrist injuries and um, you know, lower back problems and, and I think caring for oneself when, when you're in East sports players, also important education have really early on. Absolutely. You're also talking about controlling the things that, um, are repeatable and predictable and where you can find some confidence. Being able to build up the skill that you know, you can exercise at any given moment. Because then in e-sports, as with a lot of other athletic fields, you're gonna, you're gonna face a lot of uncertainty. So the things that you can do to help yourself feel that there's more that you can predict and control, it's always to your advantage to be able to maximize that.
Steph Harvey:Yeah. So team practice is to be able to control as much as you can. So when there's the uncontrollable happens, you know what to do. So whether it's working on your communication to face these uncertain cetaceans and what to do when you don't know, um, or it's working on your muscle memory. So when the day comes, your muscle memory is not going to be a problem. Cause you can control that. You can control the amount of time you do a solo practice and practice. You're aiming your grenades, your strats, your communication, all of that you can control. Uh, what you cannot control is on the day of the, of the game what your enemy opponent is going to do. But you can have a game plan for a lot of the things that are going to do and a lot of the things that might happen, you want to know how to handle these situations and so that when it's uncontrollable you have solutions or you have a plan still. Um, and I think that's the part you can control. And just like in anything in life, if you cannot control it, don't stress about it or work on the things you can control. If I'm stuck in traffic, I don't stress anymore. And then one day kind of clicked in my brain, I can't control that traffic. Nothing will change. What are I stress or not? At this moment I will be late. I just have to accept the fact that I'm going to be late. If I didn't want to be late, I should plan better. I should've left earlier. Now it's too late. I'm in traffic. I need to relax and think about something else because I can't change what's going on right now. What I can do is learn from it and next time leave earlier, you know? So it's, it's, that's how I see most of the things in life. That's why when I'm not prepared, I get mad at myself. But when I'm prepared, I'm okay and I'll be okay. That's an excellent summary I think of just sports psychology principles and how it affects Eastboards who you've just hit on a number of really important points and being able to execute at your best and control what you can and be as prepared as possible and feel like you're bringing your best, your best game to, to your performance. I can talk to you for hours. I'm enjoying this so much. Um, but I don't want to take up too much of your time. I do have questions that I ask everyone. If it's okay, I'm gonna shift in and ask those questions of you. Yeah, let's do it. Great. All right. So Stephanie, what in life are you still curious about? Um, a couple of things. I would say. How to be API. I still struggle with it. Like I still don't know why my life without competing is, it's like I've been competing for so long. It's a struggle for me to find purpose now. So I guess that, um, and learning, um, for some reason I just love learning new skills or new things or dive into stuff that I could learn or make a difference or start a project with and make things better. Still. Stuff that I'm curious about. What is more distracting to you as a performer when you receive praise or when you receive criticism? Hmm, probably criticism. Um, I know that a lot of people fuel from it and want to prove people wrong. Um, and I guess I, I can be like that, but most of the time I take it really, um, when it has to do with my skills or my intelligence, what it has to do with my body or whatever, I can brush it off pretty easily now. Um, but when he has to do with, uh, the things I say or like difference of opinion or my skill, I th I can take it really hard and I'm running out of energy proving people wrong and the game. So, uh, it's been a long journey for me. That's why I'm like in some year retirement right now. As a performer, you obviously prepare for every tournament and yet the unexpected can happen. What is something unexpected that happened to you as a sports player? Um, you know, so many things. Um, you prepare a certain waivers as a team that you think they're going to play it, that and you, they show up on, on game day and they play completely different than what you proposed for. Um, or something that always works for us and we barely practice anything else because it always works. Although sound day on day, the day of the, it doesn't work. Um, for whatever reason. Um, so you might say our preparation was lacking one that, but uh, sometimes it's just how it is you play versus Americans players who have a different, like a completely different place style. Dan European players and you go to a tournament and you face European players and you couldn't really prepare that well for it cause you live in America. So there are situations where no matter how hard you prepared, you come up to the tournament and you need more tournament experience to prepare for that as well. Kind of. So I would say every time that I've competed, uh, for the first time with the team internationally, uh, November, no matter how hard you prepared usually, uh, you kind of face stuff that you couldn't prepare for the challenge though of being a professional athlete for sure. Um, what is one tweet or comment that you've received that still stands out to you because of its impact? It could be good or bad or for whatever reason, but something that still stands out to you because of its impact. I've recently I did an interview with Richard Lewis. Um, he's a, he switched analyst a as been pretty confirmed throughout his career because, uh, he is pretty opinionated and sometimes he's, he can be really intense in his delivery, but I think that's what makes him a really great journalist. Like he doesn't let people get away with stuff. He digs really deep in his, uh, in his research. And, um, you know, in the past we've had hot and cold experiences together where sometimes I've done, I've said things that I was wrong and we'd gotten to eat at arguments and whatever and he was wrong. And, but years later we saw each other at an event and we kind of brushed everything off and started fresh. And we did an interview together recently. And, um, he, before posting it, he tweeted a very, very strong message about how, how you respected me and how the community was lucky to have me kind of, and, uh, coming from him, coming from like everything that he's been through that I've been through, it meant so much. I had tears in my eyes. Um, because, you know, not everyone likes me in my community. I can be really polarized where you kind of hate me or like me. Uh, cause I'm, you know, I talk about diversity. I, I'm known to be a feminist, which for a lot of kids means a bad thing when it should just be about general equality. I don't want female supremacy. I just want things to be equal. Right. Um, and uh, it's something that's not greatly seen online and uh, you know, to have someone that's that respected or that quote unquote that I respect in the community, say something like that, not behind the scene, but like as a tweet, um, a mental shit ton. I was so whooped. Um, and I liked it.
Dr. Shepp:I bet. I have to say though, it's so shocking to me that after all of these years, since the feminist movement that, um, people are still having trouble with it. Um, it, it's really, um, amazing that, that we haven't come to terms after all these years with the idea that when women say they are wanting to be treated equally, that it in no way implies female domination. Um, it's so surprising to me and saddening to me that that's still a perception.
Steph Harvey:Have you ever seen that t-shirt? I forgot which celebrity was wearing it, but it was written. You're either a feminist or an asshole. That's pretty much it. You're either one gender equality, you're a freaking asshole. So in a way, most guys are feminists who is just a day, they don't know.
Dr. Shepp:Sure. Well, it used to be that feminists would go on to university campuses and ask some pretty basic questions. Like, do you believe that women should be treated equally to men? Do you believe that women deserve equal pay for their contributions to the workforce? Do you believe that women should be treated fairly without discrimination or sexual harassment? And when they achieve success, and of course everyone would agree to those things and the audience and then the speaker would say, well, then you're a feminist. Um, and people would find themselves surprised that they're, they're a feminist. But, um, again, it's, it's really surprising to me that we still struggle with that.
Steph Harvey:Yeah.
Dr. Shepp:Just a few more questions. Um, Stephanie, how do you move on from failure?
Steph Harvey:Um, another great quote that really has helped me, you either a win or you learn, there's no failure in a way. So you don't see it as a failure. See it as a learning importunate D and then it will never feel like, Oh great, I love that.[inaudible]
Dr. Shepp:have you ever had what you would say was a transformative moment in your career and if so, what was it?
Speaker 5:[inaudible]
Steph Harvey:every time that I was about to, uh, lose my spot on a team, whether it's because of commitment or performance or whatnot, cause it happened a couple of times in my career, these are always life. Like make it a break. It kind of situations where you either quit or you come back stronger. Um, and I think that's what makes a great champion. Right? Um, and I, every time I came back stronger, but right now I'm in the dis, I'm designing at the moment if I'm coming back stronger or if I'm quitting and it's the hardest decision I've ever made in my life and I'm very confused because all I can think about is with Michael Jordan quit or would Roger Federer quit? If he knew he could still win. Um, and if, if the answer is, is I sh I want to quit, then maybe I'm not the champion. I think I am. So it's very scary. I'm very scared. I think I need to, to figure out, like to talk to psychologists about that so they can lead me the right way. Cause right now, I don't know, I feel like, uh, I feel like I'm giving up even though it's been 16 years old, 16 years career, because right now I might choose to not fight one more time. So yeah. What do you do? I don't know. Well, it's such a tough
Dr. Shepp:decision because you've invested your whole life in this career and transition out of sport is always so challenging and your identity has been as an, as a champion and as an East sports athlete, it's what you've put your whole life and all of your time into. So yeah, whenever that day comes, whether it's now or, or, or sometime in the future, um, but it's not going to be easy no matter when that comes. Um, because that transition is just difficult for anyone who's put their heart and soul into, into their competition.
Steph Harvey:Yeah. It's, yeah, it's very difficult. I've, my old teammates that I retired. When do you, when does it fade away? And they said it never does. So it's like a life long life battle to stop competing kind of.
Dr. Shepp:Well, to bring it back to what you mentioned before about Michael Jordan and other competitors, you can look at their experience and see how hard it is to leave what you love. You know, some become coaches, some become broadcasters, some become journalists and become owners. Um, some feel like their best days are behind them. And then how do you, how do you manage that? Um, there's just a lot of challenges with that transition. But, um, and yes, of course I'd advocate talking to a sports psychologist. Um, so last question, um, in 30 seconds or less, Stephanie, what have you learned about yourself from your particular career as an East sports player?
Steph Harvey:Um, I can't really be put in a mall. It kinda, um, like a mold. Like I can't follow the eight to five pattern. I'm different. I sleep differently, I work differently. I follow my dreams, I rushed my passions and I can take on any challenge. And I'm grateful that use words allows me to do all of that. Um, because I think I would have a hard time fitting in that, uh, well we're used to be a working day or working week and now is, my life is very different than standards.
Dr. Shepp:Well, you've learned a lot about yourself and you've also taught us a lot today. I think that people listening will, um, be able to take away so many things from our conversation, whether that be about performing at your best or how to navigate the online community or how to be involved in the lives of our kids so that they have some online literacy and, and don't fall into some of the traps that people have before them. And thank you so much for teaching us through your experience and um, and spending the time just sharing from your, your wisdom and your learning today. I really appreciate it.
Steph Harvey:Thank you so much. You're a great interviewee. You had[inaudible], you had great, uh, preparation and it showed that it was a really fun to talk to you.
Dr. Shepp:Oh thanks. It was really great talking to you as well and I wish you the best in whatever you choose. Whenever you choose, um, to make a transition and I have a feeling that you'll continue to make an impact in whatever you do, but I wish, I wish for you that it will be a very happy life. Thank you so much. I wish you the best as well. This has been managed the moment with dr Shep life physical collection of moments. It's how you manage the moments that makes the difference. My thanks again to Stephanie Harvey for joining us to share her experience and her insight and thank you for listening. On the next episode of the manage the moment podcast, we will be taking a left turn to a whole different kind of performance experience. I hope you'll join us to listen to that conversation. The more information about the manage the moment podcast, you can see the episode notes for this broadcast and you can follow us on social media. And I'm on Twitter at dr. Chef, you can subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, or wherever you choose to listen to podcasts. Thanks so much for listening and sharing these moments with us. Until next time,
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