Dr. Jean Kilbourne - Pioneering Activist, Trailblazer, Popular Tedx Speaker & Writer

Dr. Jean Kilbourne has been described as the superstar through her frequent television appearances as an author, as a lecturer, and a Tedx speaker. She is a trailblazer whose films look at the power of the image and the effects of media representations of women and men on our culture, on our health and on our lives. Jean's groundbreaking work has brought her tremendous recognition including being inducted into the national women's hall of fame. This conversation is a fresh look at her celebrated career as well as the public perceptions that have complicated for work in the public.

Listener questions included in this episode.

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Learn more about Jean at http://www.jeankilbourne.com/

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Podcast transcripts coming soon at: ManageTheMoment.net

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Music by Brad Buxer

Transcript

Dr. Shepp: 0:08

Thanks for tuning in to manage the moment conversations in performance psychology. I'm Dr. Sari Shepphird.

Jean Kilbourne: 0:16

I used to be very afraid of hostility. I was very afraid of public speaking when I started out and I realized that what I was really afraid of was, you know, hostility. And then eventually, you know, I could encounter it and it would be okay and I'd survive and you know, life went on. And so I remember giving it, speaking to a group of advertisers, but a man came up to me and I thought, Oh boy, here it comes. You know, he's gonna come up and say something, you know, horrible. And he came up to me and he said, um, you just changed a lifetime's experience in one hour.

Dr. Shepp: 0:52

Dr Jean Kilbourne has been described as the superstar through her frequent television appearances as an author, as a lecturer, and a Tedtalk speaker. She is a trailblazer whose films look at the power of the image and the effects of media representations of women and men on our culture, on our health and on our lives. Jean's groundbreaking work has brought her tremendous recognition including being inducted into the national women's hall of fame. Jean addresses important social issues in her work, but this conversation is a fresh look at her celebrated career as well as the public perceptions that have complicated for work in the public. Believe it or not, Jean was terrified of public speaking when she first began. And we talk about this as well as some of the personal underpinnings that have motivated her work. And as with many of my other managed the moment conversations, I also asked Jean some questions that she hasn't been asked before. And this time we also have included questions from listeners. I've been learning from Jean for years now and I continue to learn in this conversation. Well, Jean, I'm very excited to be speaking with you this morning, uh, for a number of reasons. Um, first because of the impact that you've had on my career and I'm sure you've heard this time and again from folks who attend your lectures, but you really have had an impact on my career at the outset because I was a college student watching the video still killing us softly and was extremely impacted by it because I was setting out to be, become a psychologist and was actually interested in women's psychology. I had some experience working with victims of campus date rape and I had some experience working with uh, girls and women with eating disorders. And when I saw your video for the first time, it definitely set me on a trajectory of wanting to continue in that work in my career. And since that time I have utilized your videos, a number of them in classes that I have taught, I refer to them quite frequently. And even in my book on eating disorders, I discuss some of the of the thin ideal and refer to your website as well. And so you, you have had quite a strong impact. So I'm thrilled to be speaking with you for that reason. But also because the topics that you address continue to be so important and have such a strong impact on not only the generations prior to ours, but also the generations to come. So thank you for taking your time today.

Jean Kilbourne: 3:23

Oh, it's my pleasure. It's nice to be with you. And I'm very, I love hearing that. Still killing us softly was an influence that, you know, that was the second version of killing us softly. I made the first version in 1979 so this year is the 40th anniversary of the film and I've remade it three times since, so most recently, uh, in 2010 as killing us softly four and I actually have killing us softly four.

Dr. Shepp: 3:53

I did update my library to include that in my collection and it continues to be so timely. So not only do you, do you address some of the ads that started you in this work in your most recent video, but it's current to the kinds of images that we see today. Um, and I highly recommend that folks take a take a look at that download whenever they're able to. But I'd like to talk to you a little bit about what it was like for you when you first started presenting the ideas in, in your work. Because those ideas were considered radical at the time, weren't they?

Jean Kilbourne: 4:19

Yes, they were. And in fact, I was as far as I know, the first person to really seriously look at the image of women in advertising. And I started collecting the, as in late 1960s and no one else was doing that. And it was very difficult getting people to see this as a serious issue. So even other feminists said, you know, we don't have time for this. You know, we're dealing with important issues like violence against women. And I would say, well, this is related to violence against women because when you have, um, when women are objectified and you're surrounded by those objectified images, that creates a climate in which violence becomes more likely. So, but that was a hard sell in those days. Now of course, I think we all know that's true. Um, and so the ideas that were radical then are really quite mainstream now. So was it a lonely experience for you then if even a feminists around you who supported women's rights and who supported of course, fair treatment of, of women and, and worked to reduce violence against women when you weren't getting the kind of support that I, I would imagine you hoped for? I, I suppose it was, although it really was, um, you know, I didn't set out to sort of make a career doing this and I was, um, I was simply interested. I'd been, I was involved in the women's movement and I also was, had been long interested in media and the effects of media. But, uh, when I started collecting the ads and we got a camera and made slides and put together a slide show, it was really something that I was just intrigued by an interested in. I didn't think that it was going to be something that would be end up being a life, a lifetime career, which is what it has been. So I, I, I think I'm, although I may have felt lonely, I don't think I expected anything, anything else at that time, you know, and it did, it did take a while for people to convince people that this was indeed a serious issue and that this was something that we needed, that feminists and everyone else needed to be paying attention to. But eventually that did happen.

Dr. Shepp: 6:21

And besides the lack of support as you began, which I know has of course changed over time, did you receive any sort of hate speech or personal attacks for the kind of work that you were doing? Because I know we're of course today in a climate where if someone disagrees with another person, of course there's a lot of quick talkback and, and hate speech and, and so it's part of our culture. But, but was it part of what you experienced back then?

Jean Kilbourne: 6:45

It was, although in those days people had to actually send a letter. So that meant that that meant it didn't happen as much. I mean, I did get some, you know, a few letters that, uh, but there was, there was no, there weren't trolls lurking on the internet cause there was no internet. Um, and, and mostly, mostly people were, um, my audience is let's say in the audiences for the film where we're interested in supportive. And I think partly because, uh, the film and the way that I presented it, uh, surprise people because in those days, one of the things that you often heard was that feminists had no sense of humor. And so the fact that I encourage people to laugh at these sets and that, you know, killing us softly is actually pretty funny. If I do say something myself. Um, I think I came as a real surprise to people who were expecting maybe to be hectored about something or expected something grim. And it wasn't that. And I think another thing that made it more palatable to people is that I always feel that I've been fair to men and that I've, you know, included, uh, how, how these images affect men as well as women. Not, not so much the image of men in advertising. Cause that wasn't such a, such an issue then, but rather that when I said killing us softly, I really met all of us because the negative images of women affect men as well as women. So that, that surprised people I think, and, and made it more, uh, made. So I didn't get, I certainly did get some hate mail and I got certainly some resistance from people in audiences and that kind of thing, but maybe, maybe less than one would expect. And I know that you entered into this career sort of unexpectedly as well, if he, if you talk about things that were unexpected, I know you didn't really set out to have this be your life's work. You, you started off as a model actually. Well, I started off as a secretary really, but I mean, I, I went to Wellesley college and, uh, and then the summer after I graduated, I had to go to secretarial school in order to get a job. And, um, so the job opportunities for women were extremely limited in those days. And one opportunity I did have was to do some modeling, which I did. And it was one of the few ways that a woman could make a lot of money in those days. And it was, you know, seductive in some ways, but it was also quite soul destroying. So I didn't, and there was a huge amount of sexual harassment that came with the territory. So I would sort of dabble in it, do it a little bit, and then go back to being a waitress, you know, because I couldn't stand the climate. Um, so that was, I didn't, I didn't certainly didn't have a modeling career. It was just something that I did from time to time. But it certainly did, uh, leave me with, uh, a real interest in the whole power of the image and the whole idea of beauty. And who decides and in her what, how does it affect you and that kind of thing. So that's been a lifelong interest of mine.

Dr. Shepp: 9:40

Well, soul destroying it is a pretty strong phrase to use. It speaks to just the challenge of, of the work that you did previously.

Jean Kilbourne: 9:49

Yeah, well I think that the modeling was such a, again, it was, you know, it was something that in those days there was everybody, you were supposed to simply be grateful that you had the opportunity. And again, it was a, you know, one of the few ways that, or when we could make some, some real money, but, uh, and it was in it in some ways perceived as being glamorous, although in fact it really isn't all that glamorous, but, but you know, what people didn't really see was first of all, you know, the sort of cutthroat competition, but also the sexual harassment and the whole way in which the objectification was just so extreme. Um, and I mean, you literally become an object. And, uh, and that, that's what I meant when I said it was sole destroying that and the fat. And the, and the harassment.

Dr. Shepp: 10:33

And you've written about the harassment that you experienced. One of the pieces that you can find online now is, is Jean's discussion about her encounter with Al cap, um, which was disturbing just to read, let alone what it must have been like to experience. Uh, and you mentioned in there, um, that this wasn't really the first experience that you had with sexual harassment when, when you had these encounters with El cap, it also, um, came to you through some of the, or one of at least one of the designers that you had been working for. But we are living in a culture where sexual harassment is really a kitchen table discussion because of some of the events of, of recent times, but unfortunately because of how commonplace it is for women to experience. Can you talk to us a little bit, uh, whatever you're comfortable with about just the impact of, of those experiences and how that affected your going to work, uh, on a daily basis when you were modeling?

Jean Kilbourne: 11:32

Yeah. Well, it was, um, in those days, of course there wasn't even a term for sexual harassment. It was just normal. It was sort of what just was what happened. Women weren't talking, we weren't talking with each other about these things. So, and there was a tremendous tendency, which there still is for women to blame ourselves, you know, so that w uh, to think that maybe I, you know, encourage this in some way or maybe if I dress differently or whatever, if it did something different. Um, so there wasn't at all the sense, or of course the general awareness of it, um, really began with Anita Hill. Uh, but, and then of course has, has really become, um, much, much more widespread with the me too movement. But, you know, we're talking now, in my experience, 50 years ago, there was nothing, I mean, there was, it was just, this is just the way it is. Uh, I, I wouldn't, I, there was no term to describe it. There wouldn't have been any place to report it. There wasn't any, you know, there was nothing. Um, but it was, what it did was it was just sort of eats away at you. You know, and I, and I experienced it, um, in, in many different jobs. I mean, not just modeling, although with modeling, with modeling, it was sort of the, the sort of cliche of baby, I can make you a star, you know, that kind of thing that you can, you can be, you can be really big and you can, you know, be famous and make all this money and all you have to do is sleep with me. Um, and whereas the, the harassment and the other jobs wasn't, wasn't like that. It was, if sometimes it was more subtle. Um, and again, you were supposed to either, I don't know, be flattered, um, think that it was okay. Somehow they are blame yourself if it got to be too extreme. Um, so it's, it's been, one of the things that's been very exciting in recent years has been in very recent years, has been to see the discussion about this and then for women to start sharing the extraordinary degree of this, you know, in all of our lives. And sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it's things like cat calls, you know, and that sort of thing. And other times it's, it's rape, you know, I mean, it's a continuum. Uh, but, um, I don't know. I know very few women who haven't, haven't experienced it, which of course is, is one of the things that unifies us as women. It's a very sad way to be unified. But the common experience that we have of, of, uh, oppression or of harassment of, um, being considered an object in, in more ways than one a sexual object, but also an object of, of beauty and thin ideal and all of that, which we will talk about. But, um, absolutely it is, unfortunately. Yes. Yes, it is. Unfortunately, one of the things that unifies us and we discovered that, I mean, that's the say the thing that was also happening, you know, 50 years ago with the second wave of the women's movement was the consciousness raising or were the consciousness raising groups. And, and that, of course just meant, um, women getting together and telling, telling each other about the, the, the truth about our lives. And what we discovered is that we had all these experiences in common, you know, the sexual abuse as children, the, uh, the sexual assault, the sexual harassment, the objectification, all of it. I mean, we all felt sort of sort of alone and that this was only happening us and therefore we must have be bringing it on ourselves. And, and of course, the extraordinary, extraordinary sort of liberation that came with, uh, discovering, um, how, how much we had in common with, with each other.

Dr. Shepp: 15:06

That's an empowering experience, isn't it? Very much so. Yeah,

Jean Kilbourne: 15:10

it's an enraging experience too. So it was very, I, you know, there was, I remember, you know, leaving consciousness, raising groups, you know, just, and feeling so enraged. But, you know, eventually you have to, you know, you have to get past that or it just eats away at you. And, and is empowerment one of the reasons why you wanted to pursue this line of research? Was it to empower yourself personally as well as other women? I suppose, I mean the, the main thing really was I felt that, that this, that what was happening with first of all that advertising was so important. I mean, it was, it, although everybody thinks is so trivial, but that we're so surrounded by it and it is the engine that drives the mass media. Um, and it's in many ways it's the propaganda of capitalism. I mean, it's all kinds of things. It's, it's, it's very significant and important and no one was really paying attention to that. And as I started to look at what the image of women was, I was, it was incredible. I mean, it was just amazing to see, um, how, how women were objectified, dismembered or by different parts of our body used to sell products. The, uh, the stereotypes that, uh, were being, uh, Propecia weighted by the advertising and that no one says no one was talking about this. And everybody sort of believes that they're not affected by advertising. Therefore, there wasn't any kind of lens being[inaudible] light being shown on it. And I thought, well, I wanted to do that. I wanted to bring this out. Uh, I wanted to bring this into consciousness. That's what I really wanted to do to make these unconscious messages of advertising conscious. And the reason to do that was not simply so that people would, um, you know, become maybe less manipulated by advertising or more aware of it or whatever. But because it also, uh, I thought was a really effective way to teach about sexism and about stereotypes. It's also an effective way to help women and men of course, realize the importance of being assertive, recognizing their right to their own need for safety, their own need for, um, having their own, their own need and right to have a voice and to express themselves as human beings and is nothing less, not as objects, but as, as human beings. And you have written in your piece about your encounter with El cap that while you had had other more dangerous and, and, um, uh, upsetting experiences with men than the sexual harassment that you experienced. Um, in your encounters with him, he came the closest to extinguishing your sense of self. And, uh, if you wouldn't mind just speaking a little bit to that and how your work perhaps, uh, relates to some bolstering not only your sense of self, but potentially others as well. Yeah, the reason that the experience with cap was so distressing was that he was hiring me or wanting me to work with him, uh, writing and doing projects that that really had to do with my mind, you know, not my body. And so it sort of made more sense to me as a model. I mean, not that it's okay, it never is, but uh, but harassment in some ways I felt a little bit more detached from. But in this case here was somebody who really thought that I was, you know, very smart and talented and, and wanted to hire me to, to work with him on projects that I was really interested in and that would have been challenging. And remember, this is in a climate in which the work was so limited and so boring and so awful. I really was a waitress. And I was a secretary, you know, and, and uh, and here was something that was really interesting and exciting and yet even then, it wasn't going to happen in less, you know, I sort of, um, gave in to him. Um, and you know, which I didn't, but it was very, it was just very distressing because it, it really, I think the way in which I felt that it, that sort of erased in that even even my mind, even my intelligence, all of that, none of it mattered really. You know, I was simply, uh, an object. And unfortunately now that idea is part of what is conveyed and in some of the images that we have in advertising that women are[inaudible], they're not a mind. They're not a creative sense of, um, of thought or of impact. They are, they are nothing more than an object. Right. Well that's true. And also of course in, in advertising, and I mean the majority of women are, um, are, you know, very young and, and conventionally beautiful and, you know, conform to it, sort of an ideal of beauty that that excludes almost everyone. And so that was another thing that, uh, that struck me when I started looking at the ads was the sort of tyranny of the ideal image of beauty in the way that it affects women's self esteem. And this again was sort of a guess on my part, you know, 50 years ago that that ha that these images would affect self esteem. And now we know that they do. Um, in the same way that it was sort of a guest, that objectification would create a climate that would encourage violence. And now we know that that's true too. But it just seemed to me, how could it not, you know, how could it not? It's an instinct that you had. Um, that certainly has been shown to be true through research and, and not just in terms of, uh, the images of advertising and, uh, not just the images of women. But if we look at some of the research that's been done, for example, on genocide and the Holocaust and the, uh, the, the way that we've whittled it down to understanding that these patterns of violence begin when a person of people group are objectified, considered nothing more than an inhuman object. Uh, and as such can be treated as less than human. That's right. And in fact, you know, I feel like it's actually essential to dehumanize someone if you're going to be violent to them, because I think that it's very difficult and it might even be impossible to be violent to someone we consider an equal human being, but it's very easy to abuse a thing. So you're absolutely right with genocide. I mean, I remember with the Rwandan genocide that they, uh, the victims were called cockroaches, you know, and that they were, that's how they were portrayed on th th the radio stations and everything else. So that, um, the, the murders, it was as if almost the, the people weren't murdering human beings. They were simply stamping out cockroaches. And of course we saw that also with the Holocaust and with, uh, in in war time, the sort of, um, names that, uh, soldiers give to the enemy and the way in which if you dehumanize someone, make that person less than human, turn them into a thing, an object. Well then violence really becomes inevitable. It's not a very, um, uplifting subject to discuss, but it's a necessary one. Um, I also find it an interesting one just with my background as a psychologist, the way that we manipulate our own perceptions in order to justify, rationalize, um, the, the choices that we make. One of the things that you have said is that you believe the antidote to despair is action. And I find that to be very encouraging and hopefully to those who are listening to our conversation as well, that instead of hearing the, the, uh, the naked truth, so to speak, uh, forgive the pun of, of, of what we're discussing, um, to consider instead that each of us has the ability to impact our world, whether that be our children, our spouses, our partners, our places of work or circles of influence. We can take action to help raise, continue to raise the consciousness about these issues and, and make a difference. Absolutely. And as, and as you say, there are so many different ways to take actions. So one of the things I've always done with my lectures is to say, um, you know, that, I mean I'm not doing all this in order to get people to sort of take on advertisers. What I really want is for people to become active, to bring about real change. You know, in the, in the culture change about, uh, sexism about racism, about social justice. I mean, and that can be done in, in, it can be done through joining organizations or through, you know, professions, certain professions or it can be done as you say. I mean simply by the way you raise your children, you know, or, or relate to your partners, um, that it's, uh, but what's important is that everybody do something. Well, gee, I'm just going to shift gears for a moment and not to in any way deemphasize what we've been talking about, but I wanted to speak a little bit more about your experience as a somewhat of a Herald, uh, someone who has been calling for action and, and encouraging others to be a change in their world. Have you ever experienced pressure because of that role or because of the perception that some people might have of you as, as being a Herald and a champion for such an important cause? Um, yes. Uh, in all kinds of ways. But it's funny, I mean, I, I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I was thinking that w in the, in the early days when I was starting out, um, and, and talking about these issues, um, sometimes, occasionally people would say that, um, I look too much like the models myself. So therefore that made me somehow, um, I don't know what hypocritical, not, not to be believed or I don't, I don't know what it was exactly, but I remember thinking then, and this was a long time ago, just wait a while. And then before, you know, me and another couple of decades, people will be saying, this is sour grapes. You know, no wonder you had this feeling. It's gonna flip, you know, because there in some ways, you know, feminists really can't win, you know, and in that regard, I mean, one is either, you know, uh, to attractive quote unquote, or, or, or, or two unattractive as there's no sort of middle ground, you know. So that was one of the ways in which, um, I met sometimes as resistance or, or sometimes people would feel that I should not be wearing any makeup, let's say, or I should be dressed in a different way than I was because, um, and, and how I was dressed was always just professionally, you know, I mean, not, uh, certainly not seductively, but it was, but there was the whole idea that if I, you know, was wearing lipstick, that somehow that, that meant that I didn't mean what I was saying, but of course, I, you know, I was never saying that, that, you know, I'm not one to dictate how people should present themselves. And that never was the point of what I was talking about anyway. But it started, it was almost amusing in those days to realize that, uh, that this particular thing was really unwinnable and I was pretty sure that someday, uh, that, you know, the, the, the opposite, the opposite, they'd be saying the opposite. They haven't said that to my face, but, but nonetheless, it's probably out there as you age. Do you, do you feel that, um, people want to, to wait and see how you respond to your own aging? Well, I, I don't know about that. I mean, I think that, I mean aging is, I, I've always said from the very beginning and you know, from when I was a very young woman, I was always aware of the fact that, um, that how I looked was that it was going to be very, uh, this was going to be very short term. You know, that, and I used to, I remember a man said to me once, um, you know, obviously a long time ago, he says, your beauty is an international passport. And I said, well, maybe, but someday it'll be revoked. And I was, I was always aware of that said it was to be a beautiful young woman is like in some ways like having, um, a lot of money in the bank, but with the absolute assurance that someday, someday you'll be bankrupt. That if your, if your value, if that's where you put your self esteem and that's where your value lies. Um, that's, it's not going to work out very well because there is simply no way, uh, you know, for that to, um, to little, to last. I mean, in spite of the fact that, you know, we see all kinds of, every now and then we see images now of celebrities who are in their sixties or you know, God forbid even older who through surgery or cosmetics or whatever, um, managed to look, you know, 30 years younger. And then that's held up as, look, this can be done and this is still, you know, but it's, it's still the same image. And we, we don't see an image of a woman who in her sixties, who's actually looks like she's in her sixties, who's presented as being, um, still attractive and desirable. Or we very rarely see that. So I was, and I was somehow aware of that even as a young woman, that this was going to be, um, this was short lived. That it gives you a tremendous sense of power, you know, in a way, but that it's, you know, it's an illusion of power, really. And it's not going to last very long. So I always knew that that was something I better not count on. Um, and that it was something that I really wanted to explore and understand better. And aging is of course for women. I, I've, I've always said this, I mean that there's, there's such, um, contempt for women who show signs of aging, um, that no wonder there's a whole lot of terror of it and so many products and industries and all of that that are all about trying to, uh, make women look much, much younger than they actually are. Um, and you know, and whereas this is not true for men really at all. And it's a world of difference because I think the emphasis for women on having to say, looking very, very young, uh, takes an incredible toll and it takes a huge amount of time and energy and money for one thing, but it also just does a whole lot of psychic damage. It's one of the ways I that, uh, and you speak to this in your lectures, that the, the images of advertising, the way that we have embraced them as, as being messages that we just, um, we buy into and accept without challenging it. It just again speaks to how we end up caging ourselves instead of allowing ourselves to, to reach our potential, um, see ourselves as more than an object because we buy into this concept. Uh, we do so as we age, we do so about the thin ideal. And I think we've seen in recent years this simply has become, uh, more of a concern. We have young girls who at the age of 12, are using certain apps to adjust their photos before they're posted onto social media. Because even taking a picture of yourself now has to be somehow doctored and made to look perfect before it's acceptable amongst your closest friends. And we have women who, if you'll pardon my term, um, engage in a form of self mutilation, um, through some of the things that we might do to ourselves in order to continue to feel accepted in our culture. Uh, based on the way that we look. So this continues to be, uh, not only a, uh, a shocking reality as, as I watched my, um, my cohorts and, and our, our children face these issues. Uh, but also a very disturbing reality. It's, it's very disturbing know, and it's not, you know, I never ever blame women for this because we get the message from birth really, that, uh, that how we look is so incredibly important. And in fact it is. I mean, in terms of all kinds of things and including, you know, success in the workplace, although being too beautiful is a liability. But, uh, but there is a certain, um, it's not that, uh, you know, we're not making this up. This is really, this pressure really does exist and there really are consequences and there are tremendous consequences for women who do not measure up to the ideal, which again, is all of us eventually. But you know, women who are overweight, let's say, are considered overweight or women who, who don't, um, shaved their legs, you know, for present themselves in a, in a particular, a particular way that is considered, you know, acceptable. And if a woman doesn't do that, uh, there's a tremendous amount of contempt, contempt and hostility that comes your way. So it's, it's not, um, it's not surprising that women spend so much time and money and energy and everything you're trying to on all of these various things. And even sometimes to the point of, as you said, self-mutilation uh, because the, the stakes are very high. There's a wonderful, um, way that women can spend their time in, in things that they enjoy, whether that be taking care of oneself in, in a way or enjoying makeup and being an artist in that way, or enjoying how a new haircut might feel or buying a new outfit. And certainly, well within the realm of, of, of what a woman should be able to do. It's, it's more about the messages behind some of the activity and the way that we convince ourselves that we're not good enough unless we do these things. That's true. And it's also, um, and you know, you're right. I mean there can be a lot of sort of pleasure and fun and a lot of those activities, but the, um, it's the, what disturbs me the most is the kind of, um, loss of self esteem, let's say, is as women grow older and we're, and we're told that we're not as valuable. We become invisible. All of that, that I think is very painful. Um, one thing that upsets me a lot is how little joy, um, many women take an eating, you know, because everything is become, uh, food has become so demonized and, and everybody's, you know, constantly worrying about what they're eating. And so I see this particularly, it just used to make me so sad when I see sort of young women that cut the colleges. I went to sort of picking up the salad bar, you know, and not, you know, just not, not taking pleasure. And then if they did have something like ice cream, God forbid or something like that, then they sort of the self, you know, berating and the kind of, Oh, they how bad they've been, all of these things. I mean, how sad it is because to me eating should be one of life's great pleasures and uh, it's, it, that's just so many women have been robbed of that, of that possibility for that kind of pleasure and joy and of course it's necessary to survive and also to thrive. But it speaks to just how deep the current runs of some of the, the messages that we've internalized. Because of course, as you know, there have been studies in other countries. Um, Fiji for example, was a landmark study where the images of advertising have been addressed and we did out too to really determine to be a cause for the rise in eating disorders in, in any westernized population. And when we realize just how strongly these ideas impact us, that we were willing to starve ourselves, we're willing to deprive ourselves. Um, we feel that somehow we need to, um, be smaller, take up less space, um, have less of a voice, have less of an impact in the world in order to be considered acceptable in the world. Um, that's a dangerous possibility isn't it? Yes, it is. Yeah. And to be considered desirable, which is why you address these issues as a public health crisis. And I wanted to underscore that this, this really isn't just a, uh, you standing on your soapbox and wanting all angry women to stand there with you. This is, this is really a very serious matter because it is a public health crisis. When we've identified the violence against women that's impacted by images in advertising. When we, we've identified the impact on the rate of eating disorders. Of course, we also know through studies from the American psychological association that depression and low self esteem are linked to the images of women in advertising. So this really is a public health issue. I have. Yes. I've, and I, I, I thought so even before I use that term, I mean, I, I was in the 80s that I began to find colleagues and they, aside from Presidio, feminists who've been, uh, some colleagues from, you know, relatively early on and many of my colleagues were in the field of public health. And I realized that, that really what I was doing was to a great extent about public health with a focus on the environment in which we all live and the way in which this environment is toxic, you know, and it's toxic to, to women. It's toxic to men too, in a somewhat different way. And it's certainly toxic to children. So that was, I realized then that that really was, it was what I was doing. And of course I also looked in the 70s, I started looking at alcohol and tobacco advertising as well, and the ways in which these, uh, the marketers targeted young people in particular children really, and also women. And of course those are definitely public health issues as well. Absolutely. And, and I know that this hits home for you as well. And which of course is up to you whether or not you'd like to talk at all about it. But I know you've had family members who've struggled, whether it be with alcohol or tobacco or even, um, been on the verge of an eating disorder. So you see the impact of this in, in your own, in your own world. Right. And I know very few people who haven't. I mean, there's certainly been, um, yeah, there's been a lot of, um, uh, alcoholism in my family going back and, um, and uh, you know, I've, I quit drinking a very long time ago, probably about 43 years ago, and I was a smoker and I quit smoking a long time ago, which was actually probably the hardest thing I've ever done, um, because nicotine is so addictive. Um, so yeah, there's, I definitely have a personal stake in all of this too. And that's part of what led to my interest in the advertising. I remember when I started collecting alcohol ads and, uh, looking at them, I was maybe six months into really looking at them. And I realized with horror that the alcohol industry understood alcoholism better than any other group in the country at that point. And that they were using this knowledge to target alcoholics and to, um, and to create addiction basically. Uh, and they were incredibly clever, but they also obviously had done the research to really understand, um, what alcoholism and addiction, you know, what's at the heart of it, which really is loneliness in the sense of isolation, which is really what's at the heart of your work in media literacy is, is you, you would like us to understand that advertisers know exactly what they're doing, that they love, um, the, the person who struggles with bulemia and sending messages that the food will be their greatest lover and their most true companion. And, and advertisers love to actually encourage people to drink irresponsibly, which I know for many people, if this is a new topic for them as we're listening together, um, might sound shocking, but it doesn't make it any less true. Right? No, absolutely. I mean, they, they, I mean the bulimic really is the ideal consumer. Um, because, you know, she or he will consume an enormous amount of food, mostly junk food, and then we'll, um, you know, purge and then we'll do it again. And dieters actually are, are great consumers too because no diet works. Cause I mean, all diets work in the beginning, you know, but within five years, people have either have gained, regained the weight or they put on more, uh, this is if they're using, you know, diet products as opposed to simply not simply, but as opposed to really changing of the way that they eat and exercise, which is the only way to have real longterm results. But so, but the whole idea that these, this consumption that these are, um, people who are dieting are great consumers too. You know, because almost every diet using, you know, again, these diet products ends with a, um, a binge, um, because you've been deprived for a long time and then you've been John stuff. So all of it is profitable, you know, profitable to the companies that are selling all these products above it. All of it is also incredibly harmful, uh, to, uh, to the people it is. And I think another trend that's harmful is that as we move away from traditional sources of media, television, commercials, print media and magazines, and we move more towards social media as a culture, we're not recognizing that a lot of what we see continues to be advertising through social influencers, through people who are actually engaging in social media in order to promote products. Instead, we feel that these are just random citizens who are sharing their success stories about diet pills or whatever it might be related to their, um, triumph with, with achieving weight loss or the beauty ideal. We don't realize that we're still being sold advertising. It's actually now a little bit more covert in its attempts destination. Silly, right. And particularly the influence of, as you say, the influencers, the celebrities, you know, including a lot of celebrities who were famous simply for being famous, you know, like the Kardashians who then, you know, are, have their Instagram accounts and all of that and, and present these products as if they've just discovered them. But of course it's really a paid commercial, but people don't realize it, which in some ways makes it even more insidious than advertising that we recognize as being paid advertising. And the other thing that's happened is really changed advertising has been the way in which, uh, advertisers can now very narrowly target us so that, uh, when we use social media, we give a huge amount of information to advertisers and they can then use that to target us very specifically with ads. And, uh, that's, you know, been great for them but not so great for the rest of us. So this kind of, and, and a lot of this, um, the advertising is also behind what's problematic about a lot of social media. So it's been a huge change in the advertising landscape in the past 10 or 15 years. Let me ask you to gene to address if you don't mind, a couple of questions that we received from callers, um, that relate to some of the changes that we've seen taking place, um, in recent years. And so I'll play the first one for you now. Hello Jean. I'd like to ask you a question about women in advertising as it relates to current events. So we've been following women in advertising for some time, but right now with the me too movement and the intense push back on the me too movement, it's very reminiscent of the feminist movement and the push back on that. How do you see that being reflected in advertising for women at this time? This is submitted by dr Nancy Marie Amor from Pittsburgh. Yeah. It's hard to say exactly how, um, how the me too movement and the backlash, uh, is reflected in advertising. I'm not so sure. Um, I'm not so sure about that, but I know that, that one thing that's happening is that some advertisers are trying to, um, do ads that are more progressive, you know, and sometimes, I mean, things like, um, I mean the whole dove campaign that's been going on for 10 or 15 years now, the campaign for real beauty or the always a commercial like a girl, which was, you know, about how, uh, how girls are often sort of denigrated, um, in sports. Um, and there are many, there are several others, uh, that are advertisers trying to, uh, be more progressive. So there's a lot of, or some controversy about these ads because, uh, sometimes people criticize them as being simply about public relations and they're not really, you know, their heart really isn't in it. And that may be true. Um, and to some extent I don't care because it's so important to me to get something out there that's, that is different. That is really, in a sense, counter advertising that presents a different image. So, even if it's not, you know, entirely sincere on the part of the company. Um, what's more important to me is that something like the always like a girl commercial ran during the Superbowl, you know, a couple of years ago. And that's really quite amazing because that's an audience that never would have seen anything quite like this before. Now if people are concerned about, um, you know, the sincerity of these, of these advertisers, one thing to do is to look at the companies behind them and see how, how they treat women in the companies. You know, how many women are on the boards of direct board of directors and how many women are in positions of power and all of that. Because ideally that companies should be, you know, um, walking the walk as well as talking the talk and not just, uh, doing more progressive, more progressive advertising. But having said that, we really do need more progressive advertising and it really can help. So I think we have seen some of that. And some of that might be, um, partly in a response to, uh, the, um, the increased dialogue that is happening now. The increased discussion about, um, about women's lives, about the fact that I think for many, um, for many hood men, uh, it came as a complete revelation that most women have, you know, lived in a world in which there has been this kind of extraordinary harassment, um, all the time and has been so, so much so that it's been considered really quite normal. And a lot of men, I think we're completely unaware of that. And the, you know, many have the ones who've taken the time to really listen to women and to pay attention to it. I think I've been really shocked and educated by it. And I also want to reemphasize a point you made earlier, which is that this, these issues affect men as well. We, we have higher rates of body dysmorphia and men who feel that they are not good enough unless they bulk up and they have the kind of musculature that they see in, in men's advertising. And you make a point, of course in your lectures that advertising directed toward men affects men differently than advertising that's directed toward women. But at the same time, it's important to point out that the men are impacted by these images as well. They are. But I think even more important than the fact that that there were some negative images of men or that men, you know, men are sometimes objectified. I think really actually much more important than that is the fact that the negative images of women affect men. You know, they affect women of course, but they also affect men partly because men then grow up, you know, learning to look at women in this way, to learning to look at women as objects or maybe not to take women as seriously, but also, uh, because, um, the hind, there's not only contempt for women in our culture, there's contempt for everything that can, is considered feminine and human qualities that get divided up and polarized and labeled masculine and feminine. And then the feminine is consistently devalued. And by that I mean qualities like compassion and intuition and nurturance and all of that. And what happens to men is they're often socialized to repress these qualities in themselves and that does enormous harm to men. So I feel like that's the kind of, is that kind of psychological damage that's done to men because, uh, because men are so conditioned to be terrified of anything that might make them be seen as like a woman, um, that, that just does that does way more harm I think. Then, um, occasional images of Mendez objects.

Speaker 4: 48:11

[inaudible]

Jean Kilbourne: 48:11

I was going to ask you how you keep your lectures fresh, uh, after so many years of presenting some content that has remained relatively consistent since you've do this time and time again, how you keep your presentations fresh for you as, as the presenter. But I imagine just some of the questions that you get each time you present the information, it must take on a new feel. It does. And in some ways, and I do, I mean, I do keep some of the same as, because now I'm trying to sort of give a little bit of depth as well in history, but I, it's easy enough to find some new examples. And I do, you know, I do find new examples all the time and I, I put enough in so that, you know, it's clear that this is still happening. Absolutely. But the, the image is actually that you include in each updated version, uh, become more shocking every time. Yes. Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. Let me ask, um, ask you to listen to the second question that came in and, um, and if you wouldn't mind responding to that. Sure. Jean, thank you for your inspiring work. What historical lessons do you think we need to learn about our activism and education efforts if we're to have a lasting impact on representations of gender, race, violence, and sexuality? Wow, that's a great question. What historic, so looking back at what we've done, uh, well I, um, one thing I think is that, uh, education is really key and that we need to start education about all of these issues very early on. You know, really right away starting in kindergarten. You know, we need to be teaching about, um, about respect for each other, about we need to be learning about bullying and how to cope with bullies and how to, you know, how to defend each other. All of those things. We need to be teaching honest, accurate, age, appropriate sex education. We should be including not just information about sex, but information about relationships, how to have intimate relationships, how to, how to be, um, part of, uh, how to be in a relationship, how to, um, how to deal with conflict without resorting to violence. Um, all of these things. And there are other countries that are doing a much better job than we are about all of these things. Um, the Scandinavian countries have, you know, a lot of the, um, Western European countries or are teach, you know, teach sex, education, teach relationship, education, uh, do all of this kind of thing. And they also do teach, you mentioned this earlier, but media literacy, which means teaching people how to understand, um, all aspects of the media. Not just advertising, but things like the news. Who determines what, what the news is. And you know, and how, who controls the media, who has the power. So all of those kinds of things are important too, to educate people I think. And we need to be also educating our, our students, um, to be critical thinkers because that's really what's most important. I mean, one of the things that's disheartening now has been the emphasis on testing and you know, standardized stuff because really what, what's going to be needed in the future and not that far in the future. 10 years in the future, what's going to be needed, um, more than anything else are people who are creative and who can think critically. Uh, because we have, we're going to be solving problems that we don't even really know about yet. And you know, no one can be sort of educated in the present with very specific ways to do that. It's more a way that you think in a way that you approach problems. And that's very important. And that would also have to do with understanding sort of the roots of sexism and racism and classism and all of the isms and the kind of pain that they cause and the, um, you know, what, what underlies them and what we can do to prevent, prevent them.

Speaker 5: 52:10

Okay.

Jean Kilbourne: 52:10

Your work speaks directly to my heart. It's the kind of the kind of thing that I encounter on a daily basis with the clients that I work with who are impacted by these isms. And, um, we are human beings. And even though we may often encounter situations or messages that might make us feel less than that, it doesn't change the fact that we are. So when we can address the kinds of issues that impact our lives and our mental health, our wellbeing, our relationships, it's so important to do. And I'm, um, I remain grateful for your work. I could really talk to you for hours about the things that you speak about because it's fascinating to me. I, I take a personal interest in it. Um, I take, uh, an interest just as, as a, an aware citizen. Um, but we only have a little bit of time left. And so I'm going to shift gears if you don't mind and just ask you to, to answer some questions that I ask everyone that I speak with, if that's okay with you. Sure. So, Jean, what in life are you still curious about?

Speaker 5: 53:13

Yeah.

Jean Kilbourne: 53:15

Oh, I'm, I'm curious about so many things, but I guess right now, given the age I am, I'm most curious about what comes after this. If anything, you know, what happens, what at the end, um, the, the great mystery, you know? Um, so, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm, I mean I'm, I'm, I'm curious about other things too, but I would say right now that that really is something that's on my mind. I would imagine a lot of people would like to see you give us a slide presentation about that as well. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Um, which is more distracting to Eugene as, as a lecturer, praise or criticism. So for example, if, if you receive praise or criticism perhaps prior to taking a stage, um, or just after, what, what is more distracting to you? I mean, I've always, my whole life paid a whole lot more attention to criticism than to praise. And I think that that's not, it's not unusual, perhaps, particularly for women. You know, I mean, I remember as a teacher a long time ago, I would get evaluations, you know, and I might have, you know, 99% of the class would say this was fabulous and on and on. And there'd be one student, you know, who was unhappy about something. And I would, you know, wake up at three in the morning and wonder, you know, about that student and what I could do in all of this. So, and some of that also has to do with what my friend and colleague, uh, Peggy McIntosh has written about called feeling like a fraud. And the fact that oftentimes people who are, who don't have, you know, white male privilege can feel very fraudulent when in positions of power, like being at speaking at a podium. And in the early years I had a lot of that, you know, that somebody was going to come up on stage and say, you know, she doesn't know where she's talking about, get her off the stage and is that kind of thing that it was, um, it's, I think it's just becomes something that is a problem for a lot of a lot of women and people of color and people who don't, as I say, don't have, I mean with white male privilege comes the assumption that if you're speaking at a podium that you are the authority and that you know, you do have a right to be there. So it's feeling like you have a right to be there. That I think is really, uh, is a problem often for people and that's something that, um, needs really needs to change. And Jean, as a performer, you obviously prepare for every lecture that you present and yet the unexpected can happen. What is something unexpected that has happened to you as, as you've presented a lecture? A tornado came once while I was giving a lecture. So that was unexpected and luckily I was in a brick brick building, but we did lose power. So, uh, that, that was very unexpected. That may be the most unexpected thing that happened. Um, yeah. Um, other than that, um, Oh, you know, I, uh, well I mean one, one time after a lecture that I was giving in Arizona, this, um, w w lovely woman walked down the aisle toward me and I realized that she had been, or we, she had been the foreign exchange student in my high school and we'd been friends and hadn't seen each other in 50 years. And, and so we had a lovely reconnection and she'd seen the ad for the lecture and she came to the lecture and then she came up to say hello. So those kinds of unexpected things have happened, but you know, there's, yeah. Huh. Better than the tornado. What is one tweet or comment that still stands out to you because of its impact, whether good or bad or for whatever reason?

Speaker 6: 56:50

Yeah.

Jean Kilbourne: 56:53

Well, it won't be a tweet. Um, comment. Um, I mean, I thought, sure if this is about this, but I mean, w I used to be very afraid of hostility. I was very afraid of public speaking when I started out. Um, and I realized that what I was really afraid of was, you know, hostility. And then eventually, you know, I would encounter it and it would be OK and I'd survive and, you know, life went on. And so I remember giving it, uh, speaking to a group of advertisers, um, once, which didn't happen very often. I wasn't overwhelmed with invitations. And there was a, at the end of the lecture, there were some questions and the response was fine, it was good. But a man came up to me and, uh, this was, I don't know, 30 years ago, so to my eyes then he seemed old, which means he was probably like my age now. And, um, and he was, you know, he was white and had gray hair and, and I thought, Oh boy, here it comes, you know, he's gonna come up and say something, you know, horrible. And he came up to me and he said, um, you just changed a lifetime's experience in one hour. And I just, obviously I've never forgotten it. First of all, I was so touched by it and also it was such a wonderful kind of example to me of my own stereotyping, you know, that I mean, I was expecting something entirely different. So I was projecting all of that onto him and in fact, it was something very much the opposite. So that was a meaningful, you know, for both those reasons. Very meaningful.[inaudible] just a few more questions. Do you, thank you so much. Um, how do you move on from failure? Is there anybody who hasn't had an experience like that? Right. Which is why I ask everyone the question. Yeah, I remember, I mean, I've had plenty of experiences with failure, right? I remember going to college and getting a D on my first paper and I just, I just said, didn't know where to make of it. You know, it was so shocking. Um, you guys had always done really well in school. Um, and, but, you know, I, I guess I probably learned something from it. And then I learned later that that was something this teacher tended to do to sort of shake us all up. But, um, other, I think one just sort of one example was when I sold my first book, uh, there was a, the editor who bought it was, you know, was fired. And then it went to another editor and the other editor was a man and he didn't like it. And, um, and eventually he, um, he, I sent him the manuscript and he kept writing on, in the hole through the margins. What about men? What about men? And it was sort of like, this was a book about women, but Oh, well. Um, and, uh, and, and so eventually he rejected it. And I remember my agent, whose has become a really good friend, I remember being in an airport probably in Atlanta, us, and says where I was allowed at the time and getting the call from her. And I remember her saying to me, you're going to have a really bad day, but don't let it be more than that because we are going to resell this book and it's all going to be fine. Um, but you know, so go ahead and, you know, suffered this bad day, but then, you know, pick yourself up and keep on going. And that was such, such good advice. And in fact, we did resell the book and got a much better editor and all sorts of, you know, it worked out fine, but that was, that was certainly, I had an overwhelming sense of failure, uh, that day. So I think it's, you know, the, the thing that, you know, what everybody says, you know, you just sort of, I think it's okay to kind of give yourself a little time to kind of say, okay, this was really bad and this hurt my feelings, or this was whatever. But, um, but it isn't who I am and I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to keep going from here. And you're underscoring the importance of separating who you are as a person from what you do. And I think performers who, who are listening would relate to that idea as well. You, you did get nervous when you would speak, you know, and, and, and yet you, you've had an accomplished career and, and one doesn't have to be perfect or, um, or come across as perfect. Um, since, since we can't be, um, which was a lot of what your work talks about to begin with that we can, no, we can not achieve any sort of perfection. That's right. And another thing that I just want to mention to get in here at some point is that, um, I, I could never have done, uh, what I've done or, or had the life I've had without the, um, the love and support of my women friends. You know, that I have really extraordinarily longterm, uh, close friendships. Not that I reframed this with men, I do, but it's been the friendships with women that have really supported me for, you know, for really my whole life. I mean, I still am close with my high school friends. Um, and, uh, that's just, you know, th th that's just kept me going because these are people who really do know me and, you know, and love me anyway. So, you know, it's that, that I think is very important. And I also want to mention that I have, um, I also have a daughter who's 32 years old and, um, and who's fabulous and that I feel incredibly blessed and lucky to have her and that, you know, that that relationship has also been an incredibly important sort of, um, teaching kind of relationship for me from the moment she was born. You know, that leads to the next, next question. Have you ever had what, what you would say was a transformative moment in your work or your life and if so, what was it?

Speaker 4: 1:02:07

[inaudible]

Jean Kilbourne: 1:02:08

well, I mean, um, I mean, this goes back I guess to, uh, to something we talked about earlier where I, you know, I'll, I'll go a little further. Um, when I mentioned that of alcoholism in my family and that sort of thing, which is that I'm, uh, I'm a sober alcoholic and I've been sober for 43 years, so I certainly had a transformative moment 43 years ago. Uh, and, and really, uh, you know, a paradigm shift when I, uh, I was in the middle stages of the disease. I hadn't, you know, I was very high functioning. I was a teacher. I was, you know, done. Uh, I hadn't done anything too horrible. I hadn't, you know, had all of that was probably waiting to happen, but it hadn't. Uh, but what happened was an incredible shift in my perspective. And I really realized that this was, um, I, I used to say that without alcohol I'd put a gun to my head and I had a moment of realizing that alcohol was the gun. And once I got that, I was able to stop drinking and then never pick up a drink again. And, and that wasn't, um, it wasn't that difficult. It wasn't actually nearly as difficult as quitting smoking, uh, because it, because it involved that shift in perspective. You know, once I got that it was the gun, I put it down.

Speaker 6: 1:03:25

Hmm.

Jean Kilbourne: 1:03:26

Um, sometimes the things that we look to in our lives that's comfort are actually the things that are hurting us. Absolutely. Yeah.[inaudible] well, last question. Um, Jean in brief, what would you say you have learned about yourself from your particular work as a lecturer and as an advocate?

Speaker 6: 1:03:45

Yeah,

Jean Kilbourne: 1:03:49

I think I've, I think I've learned that I've, um, am less afraid than I, than I used to be or thought I was, you know, that there've been the, cause I really was in the very beginning, I was really quite terrified of public speaking. I was, so, I was actually always, um, pretty good at it, which didn't matter really. I was just, it was, I, I was nervous enough that when I went to my first big lecture, you know, were like 400 people. I seriously considered driving off the road, you know, not to kill myself, but just to be incapacitated. Um, so I just, you know, so, but I kept doing it because I've always loved Eleanor Roosevelt's wonderful lines. Something like, you must do the thing you think you cannot do. You know, every time you stop and look fear in the face, you know, you can, uh, I'm butchering her quote, but it's a wonderful quote about, uh, persisting, you know, even if you're afraid. And so the fact that I felt passionately about what I had to say, and even though my heart was pounding and I had to stand behind the podium because my knees were shaking, I, I just did it. And gradually, uh, became used to it. The, all the things I dreaded happened and that was OK. you know, I managed to, you know, cope with them all. And um, you know, that I guess that has made me feel, um, just, um, much, uh, much less afraid than I used to be. Well, I'm glad that you did persist. I for one, and I know I know millions of others because your, your videos and your lectures have reached millions of people and I'm sure we'll continue to impact many, many more. I speak to four or five, six, seven year olds about the importance of thinking about the commercials that they see and the kinds of themes and programs that they watch. And I speak with from 70[inaudible] from seven to 70 year olds. I'm sure about the kind of impact, um, of the, of the, the culture in which we live and the themes and ideas that permeate our culture. Um, and if I trace back the origins of that, it, it really did start with with your video. So thank you very much for, um, the impact you've had in my life and thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today and um, and to share this conversation with, with listeners and I, I'm trusting that it will be one of the things that hopefully has more of a positive impact along with all of your other work. Thank you so much, Jean. Thank you. It's a pleasure.

Speaker 7: 1:06:20

[inaudible]

Jean Kilbourne: 1:06:21

my thanks again to dr Jean Kilborne for taking the time to join me in this conversation.

Speaker 7: 1:06:26

[inaudible]

Jean Kilbourne: 1:06:26

and thank you for listening.

Speaker 7: 1:06:28

Hmm.

Jean Kilbourne: 1:06:28

You can learn more about Jean's work on her website, Jean kilborne.com and her latest version of the film killing us softly four can be found at the media education foundation, media ed.org Jean's books can't find me. Love how advertising changes the way we think and feel and so sexy so soon. The new sexualized childhood and what parents can do to protect their kids can be found wherever books are sold. For more information about the manage the moment podcast, you can see the episode notes for this broadcast and you can follow us on social media and I'm on Twitter and Instagram at dr Shep. You can subscribe to this podcast for free just by clicking the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this podcast, and then you'll be sure to get the newest episodes as soon as they're uploaded and stay tuned for a quick preview of our next episode. Thanks so much for listening and taking the time to share these moments with us. Until next time

Speaker 7: 1:07:27

[inaudible].

Speaker 8: 1:07:36

Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:07:41

On the next episode of the manage the moment podcasts, we will hear from television host and correspondent writer and adored host of the immensely popular podcast ologies Ali ward. Going back to being a woman in performance like that to me was what was the drivers. I wanted to have a voice and you know, I acted for a little bit and I was just saying other people's words and I thought this isn't the same as having a voice. And so I think having a voice is such a privilege and I think that using it authentically and using it to maybe shine a light on things that you don't want to talk about is, is kind of a way to honor that purplish. Because if you have the privilege of having a platform, you have a megaphone and you don't say anything risky into it, that megaphone was only serving you. Allie joins us on the next episode. Thanks again for listening until next time. Okay.